Anyone hear of the new rudder pedals? I heard they're being built by a Serbian (might have the country wrong but he's in that general vicinity) and are pretty good as they don't have as much twitchiness as the others do. I find no matter how many times I play with response curves there always seems to be a point where the rudder "jumps", or maybe skips. It's said there's none of that with these new ones. A bit pricey @ $350.00, IIRC, but the guy is building them one at a time, like the old Rolls. He was advertising on the IL2 BOS forum.
I haven't heard anything bad about them, except from anxious pilots waiting for their order to arrive ...
My CH rudder pedals are less than two years old and are already total garbage. Sometimes I have to calibrate them 4 or 5 times before it registers, only to have it go wacky on the very next flight. I'm already mentally prepared for them to screw me over for Bloody April. I've had some interesting landings with these damn things.
Because I was just going to say how great my CH Pro Pedals have been, LOL
I can't imagine why my experience is so much different than Dude's. I had these pedals for longer than I've had RoF, and I've had that since it was first introduced; years before that, during the times I played IL2. In all that time, they've never once had a burp or glitch. I've never had to do anything whatsoever to them. They work perfectly smoothly at all times. They have an extremely stable, accurate feel, and a long travel; so that for rudder input, I need no special input response curve on any plane in RoF, strictly linear on everything, except for one plane: the N17 (for which I've developed a non-linear rudder response curve because it requires such heavy left rudder in left turns, and a lighter touch in right turns).
They can be had for $92.24 on Amazon.com right now.
One reason we don't exactly agree is possibly because at some point I think another company might have taken over CH Products. I have an older set, most likely from the "original" company. The current ones are probably made in China. The parts are exactly the same, but possibly assembled in a cheaper way. What I've found with the newer CH sticks I've bought is that they use cheap spade lug connections to the potentiometers in the internal wiring. Although I originally thought the potentiometers were bad, I never really found a problem with the pot itself; but having noticed the loose connections on them, altered all of the connections by direct soldering, and that stick has been working absolutely flawlessly ever since. I plan to alter the other stick I have in the same way.
It seems crazy to me to spend $350.00 on a pair of pedals. Instead I'd get a Warthog, if I needed one; but really the CH Fighterstick USB and the Warthog are almost the exact same configuration. The only differences in them is the metal construction of the Warthog, the 2-stage trigger button, and the Warthog's Hall Effect sensors instead of conventional potentiometers used in the CH stick (this I don't see how you're going to notice any difference between the two unless their is actually something wrong with the CH).
@dude: Wondering if you're using the CH Control Manager software and doing a download after you do a successful cal? And then, do you use the CMStart utility in your Startup folder to make sure this is initiated every time you start your computer? If doing all that, do you see the problem of the game axis response jumping or not responding when you move the pedals, in the "responses" section of the game options, for the plane you're testing? If that is the case you might either have a bad pot, or bad connection on that pot, inside the pedals. Not sure if you're the kind of person able to disassemble the pedals and test the pot with a multimeter or ohmmeter, but if so, and you can solder, you might be able to fix them permanently without spending a ton of money. S!
I have to admit those Crosswinds are damned enticing. Paired with a Warthog it would be the ultimate setup. I can see the real advantage is the wider pedal spacing, which is equivalent to having a joystick with a longer throw range...increasing accuracy. The tremendous adjustability is even more icing in the cake. The guy says that the biggest improvement is in RoF, but I would think that for WWII sims it would be awesome because of the toe brakes. For me the mounting would be more complex since I have carpet on a cement floor, and these are obviously made to be hard-mounted. But I've already thought of a couple of solutions that I think would work well.
CH? No the other ones. I don't like the centering detent on these, it seems too weak to me, not at all what I imagine the feel of real pedals with the forces of the slip stream acting against them. Sometimes I find myself off center when I don't mean to be. Again, the tension can be adjusted for left and right movement but that seems to be weak as well. Maybe that's why I sometimes go past the point of yaw that I aim for. Just seems to be a jump. In the old planes that our games represent how much work did it really take to get the tail of the aircraft to move a degree? That resistance is what I think would make a smoother more controlled slide to where you want to be in a yaw. Like the difference between driving a car with and without power steering. Esp. the big tanks of the 50's.
I'm not sure I'll replace the ones I have anytime soon, I'm waiting to see how they work for Siggi. Besides I have too many other hobbies to feed.
I don't like the centering detent on these, it seems too weak to me, not at all what I imagine the feel of real pedals with the forces of the slip stream acting against them.
This is something you are never going to get, even with those $350.00 pedals...although I did see mention there might be a FFB option for them in the future. Right now all we have is linear spring force (pretty much what you and I have now), or progressive spring force (what the ultra-expensive pedals have), "progressive" meaning the farther you move them in either direction, the harder to push they get. As the reviewer mentioned, the human mind has a much better memory for how much force it takes to move something than for the exact distance it takes to move it a certain amount. This translates into your being able to control them better, as when you're aiming at something and don't want to under or over compensate for aiming purposes. Also on the Crosswind pedals you can adjust the progressive spring force to suit your own preferences, which you and I can't do (not to mention the million other ways you can adjust them).
Sometimes I find myself off center when I don't mean to be. Again, the tension can be adjusted for left and right movement but that seems to be weak as well. Maybe that's why I sometimes go past the point of yaw that I aim for.
This is more of a function of the center detent of the pedals you have. Mostly likely on the pedals that you have it's not really a detent but the neutral point of the centering springs (I'm guessing you have the Saitek pedals). Basically how easy it is to "find" or hold the center is a factor of how strong the spring tension is in either direction. Your legs don't have the fine motor control that your hands do, so you need heavier springs to act against them; but it's a compromise with controllability, so you can't make the springs too strong. The Crosswind pedals use a cam, one that is interchangeable, to determine the centering feel. This is independent of the spring force, which is independently adjustable. So if you want to feel the center more, you choose the cam with the "sharper" dip. If you want the pedals to move off center easier, you choose a more gradual dip in the cam.
From what you're saying I would judge that the CH pedals have a better centering feel than yours do, probably due to heavier spring tension. Even so, sometimes I take my feet off the pedals completely to make sure they're actually centered. You are right to be concerned since having some yaw input when it's not needed or desired only induces extra drag, and if you're trying to catch somebody...or escape them...it can make a significant difference. This is why when you're trying to run away you don't make huge jinking movements, because everything you do to deflect your controls adds more drag and slows you down. The object is to make only the minimum movement necessary to avoid being hit, without bleeding off speed. So yes, it helps to know when your pedals are exactly centered.
Just seems to be a jump. In the old planes that our games represent how much work did it really take to get the tail of the aircraft to move a degree?
That was determined by two factors: 1) The speed at which the airplane was moving, and 2) whether the plane had balanced controls or not. Obviously it takes almost no forces beyond the mechanical friction of the system, to move the controls when the plane is at rest. But the faster you're moving, the more resistance that control has to moving against the slipstream forces moving over it. In high speed dives it becomes almost impossible to overcome, re. it taking two strong men to pull out of a high speed dive of a B-17 in "Memphis Belle". Balanced (more accurately semi-balanced) controls offset the force by placing some of the control surface in front of the axis of movement. This is not a cure-all miracle either, since it adds more drag or turbulence than the control surface moving alone; also it can get out of hand if the balance portion is too big and can actually prevent moving the control in the opposite direction if the speed is too great. So mainly the balanced controls reduced some of the force needed to actuate controls without totally removing it, at the speeds normally encountered, while sacrificing some speed in doing that.
Last Edit: Mar 15, 2014 14:26:43 GMT -6 by Hawkeye
Post by BH Vfw. Lotharludwig on Mar 15, 2014 15:40:00 GMT -6
The rudder pedals that you have on the floor in front of you move super easily.. If you wanted a good comparison, how about a cardboard box, with some books in it.. it would take some pounds of force to move it with your foot... that is reasonable amount of effort and one that gives you enough force required to make a smooth movement. The computer pedals move MUCH easier than they would in the plane.. much more so... they can't really create that much feeling with something the size of say the CH pedals. You would move the whole pedal assembly with that much force. To completely depress the rudder bar on an Albatross at 120kmh would be more than you might think, and it doesn't work so smoothly when you command that much control movement. The plane will yaw and then start to bank in the same direction and the plane won't like the "upset" in the balance and will pitch up against you and continue to be out of balance. If you put in more than you need and release the pressure quickly you are going to get some interesting yaw moment going back and forth. It only take a bit of practice to get the feel for the machine and how much it takes under different circumstances, but the rudder is 3rd part of the equation. You start the turn with bank, tighten with pitch, (elevator) and "coordinate" with rudder.
Remember the old "Etch-a-Sketch"? You could do vertical lines and hotizontal lines with ease... but the diagonal lines were a bitch. Well... guess which one the rudder is? The difference is that here you are blending the pitch and roll together AND adding in the rudder. For gun combat you turn with the aileron and elevator and aim with the rudder.
I will be adding my name to the Crosswind pedals list in about a month, I am getting a new 27" 144hz monitor first.
What I am wondering is, by now, why the heck don't they make any 32" monitor (not TV) that you could get HIGHER than 1080p resolution with, for less than $3,000.00 plus? Hell, they're almost impossible to find, for ANY price. By contrast, they've made 27" monitors for YEARS that are way less than $1,000.00. Why do they draw the line there, is my question?
For example, if you search all monitors that are 32" or greater, that get above 1080p resolution (3840 X 2160), on the ENTIRE Newegg website, you find only TWO matches:
Post by BH_thedudeWG on Mar 17, 2014 9:44:35 GMT -6
Hawkeye, Yes, I am using the CH control manager, and that's where I test and calibrate when I notice something wrong in RoF. When they get out of whack, the response curves pretty much look just as bad as what the CH control manager shows. I usually load the control manager program manually when I want to be sure they're working properly before flying, but I don't always have the time or inclination.
I doubt I would have enough courage to try to "fix" them on my own. As many headaches as these things give me, I can't imagine flying without them. I would really be upset if I killed them with my lack of electronics knowledge. They'll make a nice backup set some day ...
I also planned a monitor upgrade before a rudder unit upgrade, but that was before my problems were so bad (maybe as high as 20% failure rate). I never liked how narrow the CH pedals are, the center detent is sloppy and noisy, and the toe brakes (in my case - zoom) have little or no resistance and my viewpoint zoom levels are constantly changing involuntarily with heavy rudder use. So now I'm completely torn between a new monitor or new rudder pedals (but I think I could convince my wife the pedals were "cheap" more easily than I could with a new kick-ass monitor).
Sounds like you have it covered, Dude. If you're downloading your map manually instead of using the CMStart utility, it's accomplishing the same thing, so that's not your problem either.
As far as courage goes, I guess once you have a new set of pedals to replace what you've got now, you've got nothing to lose, so courage is then in no short supply.
I agree that the pedals are too close together; but I never really realized it until I saw the Crosswind type LL is correct too that they move too easily for very good feel. I don't really have the problem with them being sloppy or noisy like you do. I'm thinking when you do tear them apart someday you might find something that has come loose inside or some foreign object that might be interfering inside. Such things will be obvious then. As for the pots, CH doesn't sell them anymore but they might be found somewhere on the open market. The soldering isn't too hard but you do need the tools. There would be just 2 pots, each with 3 connectors on them. It's just a matter of snipping off the old spade lug connectors if that's what they have, stripping the wire a little and soldering each one directly to the pot terminal. Maybe you've already seen the post I made in this same forum sub heading concerning CH joystick repair, but it shows the spade lug removal and soldering operation too, and the pots in your pedals will be extremely similar.
Post by BH_thedudeWG on May 15, 2014 15:40:19 GMT -6
My Crosswind pedals are in! Better yet, the boss hasn't asked me how much they cost and it doesn't seem like she's too concerned ... (if you guys never hear from me again, then you'll know she found out!!!)
Post by BH_thedudeWG on May 15, 2014 19:38:56 GMT -6
Will do. Probably a weekend project ...
Hawkeye, wouldn't you know it, but 2 days after I ordered them I figured out what was wrong with my CH pedals ... outdated drivers (oh well, they'll make a fine back-up set!).
Edit: so far, so good. Watching me assemble them tonight, my wife just rolled her eyes and said "great, ... high-tech".
They are surprisingly heavy. The only thing I noticed is that the toe brake travel seems very short, which is OK because I only use the left one for zooming my view. I'm not too happy that its rotation axis is in the center of your foot (not the heel), as it lifts your knee when using it. Again, a good thing the travel is so short. I'll definitely have a lot to do this weekend getting everything dialed in ...
Post by BH_thedudeWG on May 16, 2014 9:32:18 GMT -6
vL - Well, that's sort of a problem I've always had with the CH pedals - too much unintentional pedal depression when applying rudder. The pivot axis on the CH pedals is much closer to the base (slightly below foot center, and farther away from the bottom of the foot plate). The result is less vertical travel of the heel with full brake than the Crosswinds (I measured 1 1/8" to 1 3/4"), even though the CH pedals have (what seems to me) a longer rotational travel for the foot plate. It's much easier to apply brake with the CH rudder pedals, and it's magnified by having such a low spring resistance (which can't be adjusted like the Crosswind). I'll be happy once I get it bolted down and figure out a comfortable spring setting. I just don't have a lot of room above my knee with my current setup and I want to make it work with the desk I have.
One thing I've noticed is that this thing is silky-smooth and makes no sound at all! Just (barely audible) thuds when reaching max. travel. The spread of the foot plates feels perfect, and I love the angle adjustments they have. I can't wait to get this bolted in place so I can play with the spring tensions and all of the other adjustments.
Post by BH Vfw. Lotharludwig on May 16, 2014 10:37:00 GMT -6
That sounds really great... might have to put a block of wood under each leg of the desk. I saw a guy at work last night had a brick under each leg of his bench. Great... as long as you don't do any thing that would move the bench and he had a vice on his.. heh heh... better not lean on that too hard.
For the price and length of time, they really should be great, and I bet you are going to really see some improvement.
Well, I submitted a request to get on the waiting list IAW your link; thanks Dude!!!
I'll let you know what happens here, as it does (if it does!).
My "installation" is on an office-type carpet, but I have one of those clear plastic protectors that makes it easy for a roller chair to roll. My chair does not have rollers, however, so it stays put when I'm gaming. My current CH Pro Pedals sit on the carpet protector, and the silicone feet keep it in place extremely well, and I keep the feet clean so it stays that way. What I plan to do with the new pedals is put some counter-sunk screws up from underneath, through the protector, and bolt them down in place to the protector, which the chair also sits on. That ought to keep everything secure!
Not too worried about the braking action (yet)
Last Edit: May 17, 2014 16:20:02 GMT -6 by Hawkeye